OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[MadDog_Banshee]

Not sure about the rest of you in NSW, but is this years double demerit point week one day longer than last year?

Thats all we need. Another day for these idiots to make more commission at our greater expense
_________________
"Back up Bug!"

[bigjon]

MadDog_Banshee wrote:

Not sure about the rest of you in NSW, but is this years double demerit point week one day longer than last year? Thats all we need. Another day for these idiots to make more commission at our greater expense

Yep, because the 1st falls on a Friday, thus turning it into a long weekend.

I don't mind the double demerit point scheme.
_________________
Don't close your eyes during the crash, you'll miss the best part

[fossil800R]

MadDog_Banshee wrote:

Not sure about the rest of you in NSW, but is this years double demerit point week one day longer than last year? Thats all we need. Another day for these idiots to make more commission at our greater expense

Simple. Don't speed, drink drive, and make sure you are wearing your seat belt. If double demerit points during holiday periods make the roads safer for me and my family even by just one percent, then I hope that they are here to stay. I think most states have adopted this scheme now.
_________________
I'm not suffering from insanity, I'm enjoying it!!!

[Dino]

Ditto the last two comments.
The simple fact that we are talking about it proves it's merits.
Funerals and life-changing occurances suck a lot more than getting caught out.
umm, I'd go as far to say that if you get busted, it's more about your own bad management than rotten luck.
Fore warned and all that.
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[MadDog_Banshee]

Don't agree with you guys. Sorry I just can't see the benefits in it.

Before I go on i'm going to clear something up, Yes I am 25, and yes I love to put my foot down (although what i drive goes as fast as a brick rolling UPhill) but I know theres a time and place for everything.

I believe double demerit points is a joke. I'm only talking about speeding in particular circumstances. I agree with seatbelts saving lives, i agree with the don't drink and drive, and i believe with all the rest of the stuff they go on about, but when it comes to speed limits, It really gets under my skin.

I'm sure most of you guys are older than me, and drive something decent, but i am a firm believer in driver education and not the take that the government has of "catch them doing bad". I believe that the RTA hands out licences to people who remember road rules, ie people who memorise facts and figures in a handbook written by some policy maker who has no idea on what a car even looks like.

I used to live in a street which was a nightmare on saturday morning. It was a nightmare because between 9am and about 4pm, i'd get these driving instructors driving their corolla's and echo's up the road, teaching someone of ethnic background how to reverse park. Considering these teachers believe they're driving road trains, it takes them a good 20 minutes to reverse park. YES, we were all there once upon a time, but it didn't take us long to get better. Consider again that these same students and teachers are in agreeance that the correct speed to take any corner is less than 5km/h with the foot more on the brake than not. Frustrating you so far?It does to me, because these same people go on later to drive at dangerously low speeds on the freeways. In the right lane.

I'm not being a jerk but i'm trying to make sense of how on earth double demerit points for speeding offences make life safer on the roads? To me its not about punishment of wrong doing. To me it should be about correct driver training. ie teaching someone how to avoid an accident by removing yourself from the proximity of the other cars. Or for example what to do if its raining and the car infront of you loses control? Or (and this one has happened to me) what happens when your car hits black ice and you go into a lane of on coming traffic?

I'm all for these punk racers being pulled off the road cos their fully hectic skyline is trying to keep up with his sick mate's WRX. But i believe if someone is a capable driver and respects their car and the road, and there is no one else around, then if they wanna put their foot down, then they should do it. I don't really think its much different from racing our bikes, because those of you who have raced would know that you aren't going to build up speed when the bikes infront of you bunch up before the next turn.

I really think that instead of the government punishing everyone for doing 0.0000000076km/h over the limit, the entire system should be scrapped and made way for a new, true education system. Outlawing speed is like saying "make all knives illegal cos they kill". We all know that shiny blades make pain, but without them how would we eat? My point is, all things are dangerous in the hands of idiots. I'm sure an idiot could even find a way to hurt someone with a feather. Double demerit points is proof to me that the police and RTA are more concerned about pocketing extra cash rather than stopping to see the cause of deaths on our road. Death toll will continue to rise during holiday periods as our population grows, but if we stop with the b.s. in the drivers education and training we can turn it around, not have such draconian communist style law enforcement, and believe it or not, have safer roads!


Thoughts? comments?[/u]
_________________
"Back up Bug!"

[fossil800R]

MadDog_Banshee wrote:

I'm all for these punk racers being pulled off the road cos their fully hectic skyline is trying to keep up with his sick mate's WRX. But i believe if someone is a capable driver and respects their car and the road, and there is no one else around, then if they wanna put their foot down, then they should do it. I don't really think its much different from racing our bikes, because those of you who have raced would know that you aren't going to build up speed when the bikes infront of you bunch up before the next turn. Thoughts? comments?[/u]

Road rules are blanket laws aimed at all road users. They are not designed to discriminate between levels of driver skill and experience other than the restrictions placed on those drivers without full licenses. No driver regardless of capability or respect for their machines should be allowed to break them when driving on public roads. Craig Lowndes may be a great driver on the track but that doesnt mean he should be allowed to put his and other people's lives at risk cruising around his local back streets on a Sunday arv. Racing our quads around a designated track in a controlled environment with willing participants is a little bit different than some boofhead driving his car on a public road at excessive speed endangering the safety of other people.
_________________
I'm not suffering from insanity, I'm enjoying it!!!

[feralkid]

Year - Total road deaths - Speeding deaths - Speeding deaths as % of
.....................................................................road toll
2002-------561---------------256----------------------46
2003-------543---------------209----------------------38
2004-------518---------------196----------------------38
2005-------508---------------190----------------------37
2006-------498---------------198----------------------40
2007*------445---------------TBC--------------------TBC
Average---512----------------210---------------------40


Sure this isn't this year but it still gives you a good idea. This is for NSW too. An average of 40% off deaths are caused by speeding. If you can deter people from speeding even if it is only for a couple of weeks it will surely save atleast a couple of lives because people have more to lose if they do speed. Don't you think that helps.

MadDog_Banshee wrote:

I don't really think its much different from racing our bikes, because those of you who have raced would know that you aren't going to build up speed when the bikes infront of you bunch up before the next turn. Thoughts? comments?[/u]

I think there is a difference there. Because the roads aren't a race track its just a path for everyone to get where they are going. But I do agree with you that when you do get stuck behind someone it is a real pain.
Maybe they should lose points for going to slow aswell.

Just my thoughts. Not trying to cause any troubles.
_________________
"If in doubt go flat out"
"Nothing worth having is easy to get"

[Hudson]

I'm sorry but it as simple as this....

Speeding is breaking the law. Don't break the law and you have nothing to worry about.

It seems you have a problem with them using it as a money making exercise but the facts are that the NSW government used to be "double demerits, double fines". That was changed because of your argument. If the facts are that double points saves lives then I'm all for it and they clearly are.

And just so you don't think I'm an old fart I'm 28, got caught doing 72 in a 60 in the back of an industrial area on Australia day long weekend while driving to work and lost 6 points. Silly for the cop to book me? Most likely but I was speeding and took the punishment because I was in the wrong.
_________________
You Can Fix Alot Of Things In This World But...

You Can't Fix Stupid!!!

[MadDog_Banshee]

Feralkid, I'd like for you to do something, if not for me, then yourself or for the sake of making your point. Go get me figures of deaths on the road which has been caused be the most stupid of mistakes or just a complete lack of skill behind the wheel.

Find any?

You won't. In fact even if you wanted to, you'd pay thousands in data mining IF it was even available. The point of that is, the cops do a bang up job of keeping such a close eye on speed that they are able to run these crappy ads about how speeding kills and provide endless data and figures and reports about how lethal it is to travel at less than a metre an hour over the speed limit. umm... no. speeding doesn't kill. idiots kill. idiots are the result of lack of education and discipline.

Nonetheless i'm glad someone out there recognises that slow driving can kill, cause accidents, or at very least force you to use the horn.

one other thing, don't say that you're not trying to cause any troubles. if you weren't there to say anything, there'd be no debate!

Merry Christmas!
_________________
"Back up Bug!"

[MadDog_Banshee]

Fossil,

you said

"little bit different than some boofhead driving his car on a public road at excessive speed endangering the safety of other people."

100% correct. I couldn't agree more with you. But maybe, i'm not making myself clear enough. An idiot / boofhead / any name you want to give someone who races through a crowded environment is what ever name you want to call him, and yes, his/her speed does endanger lives.

I'm making specific references to country roads now, as for the sake of this arguement i'll assume that every urban road is crowded, and even i myself have nightmares of little kids running out on the road to chase a ball rolling away.

Back to the country road / open road, if i drive, say, a Lamborghini (not the Gallardo aka 2 door Audi) and I wanna hear this thing scream, I'm going to do it when I have control and vision. I won't do it in the rain, I won't do it on a bendy closed road, and I won't do it if I can't lock up in time to stop it from being written off by a roo. But there's particular roads that i've been on, that are absolutely magnificent if you were driving some sort of weaponry. These particular roads give complete vision and foresight to the driver, no matter what he or she is driving.

I'm not a fan of doing anything over the limit especially in urban areas because i don't want someone's dead body to have the digits from my number plate stamped on their forehead.
_________________
"Back up Bug!"

[feralkid]

I said I'm not trying to caus trouble. Nothing about not having a civilized debate about something that a few people have different opinions on. Sure there would be a lot of accidents too from crap drivers. Maybe they should crack down as hard on them too.

But as everyone know though opinions are like @r$e holes. Every one has one.
_________________
"If in doubt go flat out"
"Nothing worth having is easy to get"

[wa5]

So exactly what skills do you have, above and beyond "normal" drivers. What advanced driver training have you completed.. (IE Jim Murcott etc).
What car club type events have you taken part in?
And what do you drive... you have said its not that quick.. usually that equates to piss poor dynamics... how does the car handle? Does it have decent tyres... suspension etc...

Honestly, I actually half agree that in normal times, a few ks above the limit (on open roads) hurts nobody... problem is, there is a lot more traffic on the roads at holiday time, so dropping the speed a bit might give you that extra bit of survival space, when that idiot is coming at you on your side of the Pacific Highway ...
or the family wagon full of mum, dad and the kids which drifts over the line, cause dad didnt get any sleep before the big trip to QLD....
Or the bloke in the Hilux ute that slides through the stop sign, because he didnt know that light truckers will try to kill you in the wet...

All of the people who I have mentioned above, have one thing in common, they are all convinced they are above average drivers.

[Banshee250R]

well i was diving through town today

a red P plater doing about 70km/h down a crowded 60km/h zone road past me we go straight past a red commodore highway patrol car, cop just sits there does nothing


cant be too interested in public safety or speeding
_________________
Doin skids for the kids and doughnuts for the grown-ups
------------------------------------------------

[feralkid]

wa5 wrote:

Honestly, I actually half agree that in normal times, a few ks above the limit (on open roads) hurts nobody... problem is, there is a lot more traffic on the roads at holiday time, so dropping the speed a bit might give you that extra bit of survival space, when that idiot is coming at you on your side of the Pacific Highway ... or the family wagon full of mum, dad and the kids which drifts over the line, cause dad didnt get any sleep before the big trip to QLD.... Or the bloke in the Hilux ute that slides through the stop sign, because he didnt know that light truckers will try to kill you in the wet... All of the people who I have mentioned above, have one thing in common, they are all convinced they are above average drivers.

Spot on there mate.
_________________
"If in doubt go flat out"
"Nothing worth having is easy to get"

Last edited by feralkid on Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total

[priesty]

Maddog, I was just like you once, back in the day when your exhaust was supposed to be louder than your stereo, but I grew up.

Merry Xmas to All, stay safe.
_________________
The term "Foolproof" seriously underestimates the ingenuity of Fools.


08 700xx

[MadDog_Banshee]

wa5 wrote:

So exactly what skills do you have, above and beyond "normal" drivers. What advanced driver training have you completed.. (IE Jim Murcott etc). What car club type events have you taken part in? And what do you drive... you have said its not that quick.. usually that equates to piss poor dynamics... how does the car handle? Does it have decent tyres... suspension etc... Honestly, I actually half agree that in normal times, a few ks above the limit (on open roads) hurts nobody... problem is, there is a lot more traffic on the roads at holiday time, so dropping the speed a bit might give you that extra bit of survival space, when that idiot is coming at you on your side of the Pacific Highway ... or the family wagon full of mum, dad and the kids which drifts over the line, cause dad didnt get any sleep before the big trip to QLD.... Or the bloke in the Hilux ute that slides through the stop sign, because he didnt know that light truckers will try to kill you in the wet... All of the people who I have mentioned above, have one thing in common, they are all convinced they are above average drivers.

A few hours ago I was sitting here with a mate of mine browsing through this website, and this post, my mate is a bit like me in someways. Before I even noticed what you wrote, my mate says "this guy is a ....head, he sounds like one of these idiot government people"

My mate has gone home now, but i kept thinking about what you said, especially your first and last lines. My driving skills? I've done the beginner BMW driver training day and i've done that AAMI thing that was promoted a couple years back for drivers under 25. What experience can i say i gained from it? The BMW one was a wank. Well, I was sort of turned off it from the type of people who went there, not really my crowd. The AAMI one had "NSW highway patrol funded" all over it. Speeding kills, blah blah blah. The good things I gained from it? I'd say recap of stuff i already knew but took for granted, examples include tyre pressures and reaction times.

I don't agree with what my friend said, I agree with what you said. You are right, all those drivers who have accidents like what you described, did claim to be better than the average bear. Lets be real now, Mr Makkinen will put it on me any day of the week. I'm just to young to have learnt from experience about driving. I don't have a multinational funding my right foot habbits to go where they go. And I don't care what anyone says, whether it be a profession, a sport, a skill.... you just can't get good at it until you do it, again and again and again. No paper signed by a university vice chancellor will make you a professional. Experience makes more sense than knowledge.

But i'm going to try again to get to the crux of my arguement. Imagine this situation. A person is driving a car on a main road. The main road goes through a high pedestrian area ie a CBD area. The person is doing the limit which is 50km/h and is completely focused on the road. Some idiot chick wearing her ipod is strolling out on the road, doesn't notice the car. The driver hits her. She dies. The driver has not breached both a) his duty of care to pedestrians and b) he has followed the road rules. The driver is not at fault.

Are we in agreeance? I'd like to know before I make my point.
_________________
"Back up Bug!"

Last edited by MadDog_Banshee on Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total

[MadDog_Banshee]

priesty wrote:

Maddog, I was just like you once, back in the day when your exhaust was supposed to be louder than your stereo, but I grew up. Merry Xmas to All, stay safe.

Believe me my friend, it'd be a cold day in hell before I spend money on a stereo. I'd buy a complete rust bucket empty shell of a datsun if i could pour money into making this thing a VP red swilling lumpy big block monster.

and Merry Christmas to you too
_________________
"Back up Bug!"

[wa5]

Not quite sure what that scenario has to do with speeding on open roads, but here goes.

I don't have enough information, but... if the person behind the wheel is "completely focused on the road".. they are not a good driver., you must be scanning everywhere for people, animals and other vehicles, who may fling themselves in front of you. So I would lay some blame on the driver, The exception would be where the pedestrian has truly "come from nowhere"... IE behind a truck (or other large object) that has blocked the potential hazard from the driver.

Constantly changing speed limits in built up areas, and pedantic enforcement of those limits... are an unnecessary distraction that makes it more difficult for a driver to be doing what they should.

Back to speeding on open/ country roads.... As stated, I don't totally disagree with you. I have been in too many cars at speeds above the limit to do so. But the double demerits thing is probably one of the less cynical things that the state government does. They aren't making any more money on fines, they are simply trying to encourage drivers to take it easy whilst the roads are crowded with holiday makers... (most of whom never travel outside of a capitol cities 80kph speed limit. Your reference to uncrowded country roads means you shouldn't be doing anything silly during the "silly season " anyway.

Car craft is not something you can learn from books, but advice/ tuition from somebody who is a decent steerer, is a definite advantage, as is practice in a back paddock.
Any twit can put the hammer down on a straight road, or on the twisty bits, what happens when it all comes unstuck separates the men from the boys...

In my opinion, driving is one of those things that we cant objectively rate ourselves on (thinks of "Rainman" "I'm an excellent driver"). There are people who I wont ride with, others I would class as okay, and a rare few that I would trust at almost any speed... not too many of those though.